From strength to strength

Iriss.fm, Episode 158
Published on 15 Dec 2016

In 2012, Iriss undertook a project focused on understanding how an assets based approach could improve mental health and well-being within East Dunbartonshire, focusing specifically on Kirkintilloch.

East Dunbartonshire Association of Mental Health is now in the process of integrating Personal Asset Mapping (PAM) into WRAP (Wellness Recovery Action Planning).

Iriss caught up with the team in East Dunbartonshire to discuss how the idea came about to integrate personal asset mapping into WRAP?; what has happened; the feedback; learning; outcomes; and next steps. The discussion includes representatives from the Scottish Recovery Network and East Dunbartonshire Association for Mental Health.

Date of recording
Audio transcript

From Strength to Strength

LP - Lisa Patonni
JM - John Moody
DD - David Delaney
DR - Deborah Reid


In 2012, Iriss undertook a project focused on understanding how an assets based approach could improve mental health and wellbeing within East Dunbartonshire, focussing specifically on Kirkintilloch. East Dunbartonshire Association of Mental Health is now in the process of integrating personal asset mapping into WRAP - Wellness Recovery Action Plan. Iriss caught up with the team in East Dunbartonshire to discuss how the idea came about to integrate personal asset mapping into WRAP, what has happened, the feedback, learning outcomes and next steps. The discussion includes representatives from the Scottish Recovery Network and East Dunbartonshire Association for Mental Health.

LP Welcome everyone, it's lovely to have you hear. Could I ask you just go round the table to introduce yourselves please?

JM I'm John Moody I'm a network officer with the Scottish Recovery Network, an organisation that promotes the idea that people do recover from mental health problems or live in recovery and I'm specifically responsible for the concept of self-management as it relates to the recovery and I have been responsible over the last 4 or 5 years for promoting a program called WRAP - Wellness recovery action plan.

DD Hi, I'm David Delaney. I'm the chief executive of East Dunbartonshire Association for Mental Health, we provide a range of recovery focused support services...community based across East Dunbartonshire.

DR I'm Deborah Reid, I'm a mental health support worker for East Dunbartonshire Association for Mental Health. I work one to one with people from the ages of 16 upwards and I also work within groups. I have my own wellness recovery action plan, I've also been doing a lot of the personal asset mapping.

LP Thank you and we're here today to talk a little about how you, your project really, to integrate personal asset mapping into the WRAP process it might be useful if you could tell us a little bit about WRAP more generally before we go onto talk about how it's been, how you've altered it this time round.

JM Okay would you like me just to pick that up...I've had kind of the most links with the American organisation and individuals that are responsible for developing WRAP. The name of Mary Ellen Copeland is particularly mentioned and also an organisation which is called the Copeland Centre and they promote a very structured process which was developed by a group of people with fairly significant mental health problems. Many who had been in and out of hospital in America often in fairly brutal circumstances and had kind of significant experience of trauma and they sat down in a room in 1997 and developed a 7 element self-management program that was very recovery orientated. It was significant because it came from, if you like, the bottom up. It came from people who are using services, it was very much about promoting wellness within the recovery format. For example it's based around a set of values which are expressed in 5 key concepts called HOPE, personal responsibility, education, self-advocacy and support and in fact the work we've been doing with PAN kind of relates to that, which we'll talk about later and it's been very successful in America and since about 2000 it's been rolled out much across the world and particularly in Scotland and as a WRAP facilitator I was also trained by the Americans as an advanced WRAP facilitator and I've been responsible for training facilitators who deliver WRAP across Scotland.

LP Okay and what about yourself and your experience with WRAP?

DR Well we as an organisation have used WRAP with our clients as a tool just to help them to take more control of their wellbeing. It fits in really nicely with the way that EDAMH each work. We deal with all the...it's recovery based, we work on a strengths basis so we don't look at the kind of the deficit based model and so we work to peoples strengths and look at their strengths and try and build on them so it fits in very well with how we work.

LP Okay and how did the idea come about to integrate personal asset mapping or PAM for short into WRAP?

DD It was an opportunity emerged earlier this year when some of our colleague organisations in East Dunbartonshire for a co-production approach and...with a view to EDAMH bring their experience in both working with WRAP and personal asset mapping as 2 specific tools, both recovery focused to bring to that partnership. Deb and I were looking at the...it was around the practicalities I suppose of delivering those 2 tools and it was through a discussion around that we began to consider the possibilities, the benefits, the values of integrating the 2 tools. Given that they were pretty much, just at face value, very mutually compatible and the more we explored that the more a kind of excited I suppose, we got to the extent almost I think of almost kind of feeling daft about why hadn't we considered that before because essentially what we'd be doing with our own clients, the people we support usage of the tools our clients taking on board those tools it's not a requirement, it's not obligatory but what we have done in the past, I suppose up to this point still doing it with clients, it's an option whether they can use either or both but we had never considered using an integrated approach so Deborah in the first instance kind of started exploring that in more depth and as Deborah mentioned, Deborah has her own WRAP and we all have our own WRAP within the team when we are exploring adopting a new tool where it's practical we tend to explore that as a team and where practical we basically adopt that as our own tool, you know, kind of where we can – so we all have our own tool and most of the team has gone through the personal asset kind of map as well so Deborah explored that and basically you did it yourself, combined...or looked at combining your WRAP with a personal asset map and I'll pass it over to you, what your experience of that was.

DR I suppose at the time everyone has their own level of mental wellbeing, mental health like David says we all use, we all use our own tools or whatever tools fit best with us. WRAP has always fitted quite well with how I feel for to keep my wellness on track, I've used the personal asset map as well cos I've been quite involved with the project since it first started. I basically sat down one afternoon, it was a lovely sunny afternoon in my back garden and sat with my WRAP, I was re-doing my WRAP cos you quite often revise it and look at it again so I sat down with that and the personal asset map template just the concentric circles and started to work my way through it. Things that were coming up on my WRAP and transferring them over to my personal asset map and vice versa and basically it just...it was just a very logical way of going through it. My personal asset map was enriched by the WRAP and the WRAP was enriched by the personal asset map as well so that's where I got to and I was quite excited about how it turned out.

JM I mean I think that's what has been most exciting about this project, what I think though has worked for us from the point of view of SRN is that it gives the opportunity to work with an organisation that already had, you know, quite a significant history of working with WRAP as well as with personal asset mapping. I mean our relationship goes back at least 5 years, we've delivered workshops in WRAP at EDAMH we've trained 2 facilitators a few years ago. I think what also impressed us was EDAMH Looked at WRAP themselves and developed their own approach to WRAP which actually also kept the values and the recovery focus but also changed the language a little bit in ways that I think was actually quite positive. Part of the opportunity was it allowed us to be a little bit challenging, sometimes the language in WRAP can get a bit kind of quantified and there is a danger that eventually it kind of becomes too rigid, we're going to try and avoid that and I think also as Deborah I think, very eloquently put on kind of personal level for her it kind of had a foot in both camps. Relationship with WRAP and relationship with personal mapping and on a personal level as somebody who uses WRAP very strongly but I'd not really been introduced to asset mapping. I was interested in developing it and I found it personally in my own WRAP but also as a facilitator very, very exciting and certainly I think it...in putting them together and trying to integrate them produce something that's going to, I think, be very powerful. I think in the way that Deborah's described.

2nd Female voice. Can I ask specifically what you thought personal asset mapping might bring to WRAP, so I suppose we've talked about how they're very similar or they've kind of got the same values and principles of both strength based or asset based behind them. What is it that they add to each other?

JM For me I think it's not so much that they're kind of similar they're similar I think in the value base but they're very much about being personal centred, strengths based and I think as David mentioned they're very much a kind of about co-production. They both kind of involve people kind of use services, who use WRAP, who use personal asset mapping getting involved with people in organisations who perhaps could be described as professionals. The value base I think fits very neatly, what I wasn't sure about before we did this kind of pilot was how we were going to integrate into WRAP or bringing the 2 together but I actually found that they both fit very neatly and on reflection I think part of it is due to the fact that WRAP is very much about someone promoting their own well-being but also reaching out through the ideas about taking personal responsibilities through developing hope by reaching out to people in their community that can help support them and a mapping process in that way and also taking some of the ideas behind WRAP like for example part of it is where we ask an individual to describe what they're like when they're well. We talk about the Wellness Tools, I think very closely and very easily to the idea of assets in the community. Infact in America, I think because of it's kind of very individualised culture sometimes support can...which is one of the values that I described can look a bit like kind of getting people to support you. I think the idea of having a kind of map with very simple concentric circles and laying out descriptions of what you're like when you're well I think your wellness tools and your assets in such a way that you indicate how strong they are for you can actually make you look much more at what's in the community and I think that also then fits very neatly into the idea behind...which I think EDAMH have also been involved in as a community organisation linking into other things in the community that the people they work with can actually use and I personally found that when Deborah talked me through exactly, as our co-facilitator through the process of producing my own asset map, my own little diagram I thought Wow, I'm going to put this into my own WRAP. It's going to be part of my WRAP so I can lead to a degree personally. I think there's a work to do but I think we've got to review this process and we'll maybe talk about that. For me it's been really exciting and that's one of the reasons why I've enjoyed working with Deborah because of her link to WRAP or her link to personal asset mapping as well.

LP Thank you

DR For me I think one of the very simple things that the 2 of them coming together, the 2 of them integrating is that WRAP is very much...a lot about writing, writing things down and having things in quite a...

LP Sequential?

DR ...yeah it's sequential but it looks like a form to be filled out with all the different pages and it works really well for some people, other people are more visual and I think that way it combines the 2 so you're reaching more people and people can then adapt it to their way of thinking a lot more and they can make their personal asset map be as colourful or as...just whatever way they want it to look and I think that way you are getting the learning from different people's learning a lot better and that's part of WRAP is about education and learning about yourself so it is that way that it could be a bit of trial and error in there to see how people want their map to look. There was one person that was on the course that she was doing it and then she was just like "No I want to do this again, I want to do this again a different way." Because to lay it out in a way that made more sense to her so it gives that option so I think that works well as well, makes it more personal.

LP Okay great.

DD I think when we started getting into it and as much kind of optimism we had about the compatibility of the 2 tools and one of the really attractive things about personal asset mapping is that it only works if somebody owns their personal asset map and it has to...for it to work it has to represent them and their life and their community and however they want to define community so theoretically you know you could have a hundred personal asset maps and every one of them...well there'll be commonalities obviously between them but every one of them will look different. I think that was one of the things that came out when somebody started doing their map in with for a short space of time "Oh that's not how we want it to look." And I'm...that's great, that's fantastic but we also started to realise as Deborah said it's to reiterate that but particularly given the people we work with, the people we support who may have difficulty due to what they're experiencing, difficulty with attention, concentration, focus, to try and sort of conceptual in their mind figure out about what is wellness about for me, what is recovery about that can be quite difficult John mentioned that, we kind of reconstructed what was the existing I suppose kind of booklets that supported the wellness and the WRAP kind of tool. We kind of as a team we deconstructed that and kind of put it back together to what we thought, initially, would be a kind of more sort of user friendly but we then took our kind of reconstructed booklet and then gave it to a focus group of clients and said to them "Right, now you pull that apart and put it back together and give back to us something that will work for you and if it works for you then there's probably more chance it'll work for a broader range of people that we support but even then it's you know, there's 2 booklets. There's the, I suppose the WRAP booklet and then we constructed with the support of clients a booklet of kind of supportive language and terminologies just to help not that people can necessarily cherry pick but just helps people explore kind of language that they might struggle with so that's what we had but what I think is really important is the point that Deborah made that what the personal asset map brings is a very visual thing it's something that can make an enormous difference to people figuring out what wellness means for them and what are assets in their life and how they plot that on their map is entirely down to them it doesn't get more personalised than that and as much as we've been using the personal asset map separately from WRAP up till now we you know, we've still to evaluate this process but we're absolutely convinced we'll be using this as a combined and integrated tool and some of the benefits we saw of some of the people we support with WRAP where up till we adopted WRAP...what was that about 4, at least 4/5 years ago it was a sort of recovery plan process that we used and still use actually but what we discovered with WRAP with some of the people we support it was the kind of tool and the step that was missing for some of them it was always kind of revelationary, it was like this is what I've been missing and the key bit about it was as John mentioned it it's about that taking control and taking responsibility and actually believing that they can do that and we think this, you know this very sort of visual representation of these other important things and being able to that...Deborah mentioned earlier that sort of cross fertilisation of both (... unclear)

JM Cross fertilisations (... unclear) talking about it, I mean what I liked about EDAMH's approach to WRAP was that they were very much a community organisation SRN very much want to in the next phase of its work move beyond kind of national work and look much more at how recovery works in communities and I think what EDAMH did with WRAP is that they did look at it and see how it would be relevant to them and changed things but is very much on a corporate used approach with the people they worked with which I think is very important but what I found particularly useful and interesting as a WRAP facilitator and someone who's used to sticking with the structure of WRAP and the language of WRAP in fact in America we were kind of trained to always kind of not change the language too much but I actually found that it was very easy to relate language of WRAP very closely to the way that it was being described in the EDAMH booklet in the way Deborah and other people in the organisation approached WRAP so I think I was very pleasantly...not surprised but excited by the way that the 2 worked very smoothly together and I think with development work I think we've got something that I think could be very interesting, you know not just for EDAMH but much more widely.

LP Fantastic, so we've talked a wee bit about this process and how it needs to be evaluated and the project more generally but if you could just tell me what that project is and how you've taken that work forward so that you've been doing a piece of work, what did that consist of, how did you go about it, all of that stuff, Deborah?

DR Okay so after all the kind of preparation work had been done and I'd looked at the WRAP and putting personal asset mapping together I knew it worked for me but then didn't know whether it was going to work for anyone else in theory it probably should of or it should. We decided to run a pilot training session or how every many sessions it was going to last for to put...to integrate WRAP and personal asset mapping together I got in touch with John and the 2 of us sat down and talked about it and John was enthusiastic about it and enthusiastic about being part of it. I was really appreciative of the input and experience that John had so we sat down, we decided that it would be good to do this pilot, we were wondering who to actually involve in the pilot and I felt that it was probably quite important to have people that had already been using WRAP and had knowledge of personal asset mapping as well. We thought that it would be good to get some of our colleagues from EDAMH but also some clients as well basically that's how it started so we had 10 people to start off with, 10 people to start off with...a mixture of EDAMH staff and clients from EDAMH just whoever was...felt that they were in the right place and had time to spend cos we were doing it over 4 sessions so they had to be able to be available for all 4 sessions, one of the criteria involved in that.

LP So that was our pilot, I don't know if you want to say?

JM Yeah I agree, I think that having people who were using WRAP themselves already and had experience of WRAP and I think that's why it was important to work with organisation like EDAMH that had actually been introduced to WRAP some time ago and were familiar with it. I particularly was interested involving the people who used their services and that's something I'd like to develop cos I think there's more work to do in that area but there's no doubt for example the individual that Deborah described became particularly excited about, you know, the asset map and the way it related to the structure of WRAP from the well there's 2 box ... through to the description of what you do on a daily basis through to the central element which is more about how you deal with your triggers, your early warning signs when things are maybe, you know, starting to get close to a break down and even talking about the crisis plan ... the post-crisis plan actually was quite exciting in that context cos while we kind of familiar with a list of instructions/sessions we were almost using elements of PAM as a kind of underlying structure in a visual way cos virtually everything we did ended up somewhere along the map in fact some of our participants got really enthusiastic and their maps were just kind of scattered with...they've filled and as Deborah said I think one individual actually redrew herself, well re-drawn mine and then do a photograph of it and actually keep it as part of my WRAP. I think the people that were involved worked, it was the right number of people. I think people couldn't be there some sessions, I think we ended up with about 8, the last 8. Four was a good number of sessions but I would like to look at how it would work maybe over...maybe 8 sessions but we'll maybe look at that once we've reviewed the work we've done and looked at the feedback that we've got.

LP Okay so you had 4 sessions with approximately 8 to 10 people...

JM Yip.

LP ...involved and you started with personal asset mapping as an under-pinning feature of each of the sessions?

JM Uh huh.

LP Yip? Okay what feedback did you get? Good and bad feedback?

DR The feedback that we've had so far has been really positive, it has been yeah very positive. In the first session we were trying to just inform people of how we were going to try and get the asset map and WRAP integrating and I think they were quite keen let's say to move on and just to get on with it, just to actually get on with it. It was about starting just from people in the centre of their personal asset map and working it forward from that.

JM Which in many ways is actually a bit different from the way we traditionally approach WRAP cos usually what we do is we start with the key concept and do them almost to some degree in isolation then we look at well the very powerful concept of the Wellness Tool Box and Wellness Tools. I think by almost if you excuse the expression ‘laying it on the table' in the asset map it actually allowed us to start with first concept of support but also linked to the ideas behind self-advocacy and education so in many ways we took kind of 3 other concepts in the first part of the asset map that mainly Deborah laid on that kind of...we decide to put most of the first session...we actually got the people down on the map in such a way that made sense, I mean, using my own personal example I find that my own WRAP support and self-advocacy are my weakest areas and though I'm good at drawing up plans for my Wellness Tools and using them to help me when I get triggered and when I'm feeling well. For example at the moment I'm having a particularly bad patch at the moment so I'm concentrating very much on my WRAP but I found that actually thinking about who my supporters were actually is a useful place to start. Mary Ellen Copeland who...and often supporters are really left to later in the plan in WRAP, she says you need for example 5 supporters at least to help you instruct crisis plan but we often don't start talking about the idea of supporters till maybe later on in WRAP but in this process what we were able to do was talk about (... unclear) at the beginning and actually for me, putting down a number of people...I actually managed to really have a look at people that maybe were on my outer rings that maybe could be in future looked on as people who were my supporters and also allowed me to reflect on the way some people who often when I say in workshops that I am not good at support, I'm a bit of a loner that I don't make connections with people easily." They'd often say to me "Well I think I'm one of your supporters John." And actually visually allowed me to maybe write these people down on the map and think "Well you know, they're there." They might be at this outer circle, there's one or 2 of them in the centre. It was powerful, you know?

DR That is one of the positive things because...and that's some of the feedback that we have...that I have had back is that starting that way so that you're identifying the supporters means or the people that can support you wherever they are means that when you're going through your WRAP over the different sessions over the weeks you've already identified the people that are good for you in your life so...cos there's some parts of WRAP that can be quite difficult to look at and can be quite challenging. It means that after that you've...you know who you want to go to, to have support. Even to go through your own...while you're going through the process of making your own WRAP so it means that the supports been identified there or Wellness Tools identified quite quickly as well quite early on in the sessions so that you can put all that into place to help you while you're going through the process of making your own WRAP. So I think that helps as well and that has been some of the feedback. Other feedback we've had is that it works really well...people especially some of the other colleagues that we've got did the course. They're going into the WRAP and personal asset mapping sessions as they're just taking themselves in so they're not going in as "Oh I'm this level." Or whatever so it's a level playing field when you go in and that way they're using their own experience and they're own wellbeing is the priority it's looking at that, they're not specifically looking at it on how to take it to use with other clients of ours, although that is obviously part of what we're wanting to do next with it. The feedback we've had so far is that it's been very useful and having the visual and the written part of the WRAP has worked well for them and it can be individualised.

LP Is there anything that didn't work so well, that you want to share? So this is all just about what you've learned from that first test so that if other people were to do it then they would be able to, I guess, not make the same mistakes or to take the best bits from it.

DD Me being honest with you, I was a participant...I couldn't manage the first week but I attended the 3 subsequent weeks and just through talking to colleagues sometimes it specifically have a conversation around, you know, how we're finding it and just kind of in passing. Deborah touched on it a bit earlier, you know, people were really keen to get into it because I suppose what we were doing you know it was for the purposes you know primarily to see if you know can as much confidence and enthusiasm that this would work but we had to test that so it was about delivering an integrated kind of I suppose training course and it was the first time that that's been done and obviously Deborah and John kind of put that together. I think certainly in the kind of first week people were very keen to get into their you know...I want to see how if I can combing my map with my kind of WRAP and maybe didn't feel that they didn't get to do that as early as they'd like so that's really, really valuable kind of feedback and no doubt we'll feed into the kind of adjustment of kind of how it's delivered so yeah it was initially about lets test that we can integrate that but I suppose some of the other things I was going to mention and it's not so much about maybe what didn't work so well was...as well as it's about testing and if we can integrate this it was also and it would only work if it was also about so you know during these 4 weeks we want you to re-visit your WRAP or if you don't have a WRAP build a WRAP and build a personal asset plan and for me personally it was actually invaluable cos it made me re-evaluate a lot of things and what was really interesting was again when I did my personal asset map it's interesting that these assumptions you kind of make in your mind about where things are but it's not till you plot it on the map and you think whether it's a...the asset whether it's a person and actually it turned out to be some people they were not where I assumed they would probably be, weren't. It actually turned out they were more...I suppose kind of to an extent you were...I think, touched on it there, they were actually more important to what they contributed to my map than I'd considered but I didn't realise that until I sat down and did my map.

JM I mean I don't think there was any major disconnect or problems throughout the 4 sessions, (... unclear) was that they as David said he was unable to join the sessions until later, and there were a couple of others that missed session and I think I'd like to certainly repeat it and I think for anything like this you need to do it more than once before you can see all of the kind of misses or what does work or what doesn't work so I suppose that would be the need to do it again and the need to do it in different situations with different lengths of session, numbers of sessions. Also I think the fact we planned it there was a gap between one session, we missed a week because of a holiday so I think that...you know I'd like to see it kind of rolling consecutively but that's kind of nit picking. What I was quite keen on doing and Deborah produced a very detailed and very good evaluation form which was filled in at the end of the sessions but we also did an evaluation at the end of each session which takes the form of something I've done before and to various strengths based evaluation what you do is you use symbols you use a circle which represents things that people find complete in the session and you use a triangle to represent things that were incomplete and you ask people to write at least one circle issue and one triangle issue on individual post-it's and we then ask them to post-it and we put those on the wall at the end of each session so they form a kind of structure. What I found useful about it is that it does visually allow you to see whether you're actually achieving the outcomes and outputs that you're looking for because if it's going right then the amount of stuff on the left circles then there's the stuff on the right and hopefully that shows a pattern of kind of the stuff on the right declining and that did happen definitely people were finding it difficult to find negative things to say about the sessions beyond maybe environmental issues which are always a problem. Beyond that I think it was very, very positive but what we also need to do I think as well is look at maybe revisiting some of these individuals maybe in 3 or 4 months just to see how they're feeling about the experience, whether they're still using WRAP or whether they're still looking at the personal asset map all of these kind of issues. There's a lot of work still to do.

LP Thank you very much, thank you for sharing that and I love your evaluation method. I'm going to use that, pinch it for my own. I think you've talked really explicitly and helpfully about your own experiences. Is there anything else you'd like to say about the outcomes that you're hoping to achieve or you're hoping to see?

DD I think as John said, I mean, we knew that this was a first stage that there's still some evaluations to come and I'll just put my hand up and say "mine!" I've been busy being (... unclear) shocking, shocking! ...and then, you know, there needs to be a reflection on that. What it's done is reinforced to us particularly in EDAMH that we have, you know we're convinced that this is going to work and really, really pleased that it's something it was 2 existing kind of tools which were compatible, you know we can integrate now that we'll be able to offer to the people we support and from a very practical point of view and again going back to you know people that maybe have kind of difficulty focusing on things at times depending on where they're mental well beings are, depending on their kind of circumstances in a very sort of practical level it's not too related but non the less 2 separate tools we were spending time you know helping people learn and adopt and apply to their life. It's an integrated tool, okay it might take a wee bit longer but it's something I think that's going to be really, really helpful for us for helping other people. I think the other thing is what's become very clear to me and it's through my own experience of you know participating in it's the value of that visual thing and what's interesting from a personal point of view I'm less of a visual person but non the less you know just having that sort of visual representation I thought well if that works for me, not being too visual I can imagine that being really, really useful. I think also as something that...it's very, very accessible for someone just to pick up at any point, you know they can have a wee reduced... I mean these are things we've still to explore you know you can have it as an image on your phone, just something that you can look at and very, very easily very, very quickly just it can reinforce stuff. We've still to explore but that's quite exciting as well you know just that the more sort of peripheral...

DR One of the people that I currently work with has, I've gone through this process with them on an individual basis cos she couldn't make the pilot so I did it with her and her personal asset map, she decided to frame. So she's going to frame it and put it in her bedroom because she spent a lot of work and there's a lot of kind of art work and a lot of creativity put into it so she's framing it so do you know I think that's the thing cos she was like "Well do you know, it's a lovely picture to look at....it's a lovely picture to look at." But also it means that she will look at it a lot more often and obviously she can just take it out of the frame and redo it whatever way she wants to so but yeah I think the other thing about doing this pilot although I've had contact with John before and I've been to...when we did the WRAP training with EDAMH years and years ago I've never co-facilitated with John before and I think that's something to take into account as well that when you first are co-facilitating with someone, it's about getting used to the other person as well so...

JM Yeah.

DR ...but I mean there was no teething problems between us or anything like that but it is about getting used to the other persons way of working and for John to get used to my way of working as well and doing another few different kind of sessions and another few pilots or whatever that would be really, really good and it would be really helpful because the next one will be different just...well given that it will be a different group of people but also because we will know how...myself and John we will know how each other works as well so that always kind of helps towards the process.

LP Seems like a match made in heaven.

JM Deborah never hit me once.

LP That's success if ever I heard it. Well on that note I think we're ready to wrap up. Is there anything anybody wants to say?

JM I want to say it was a great project, I mean I think as far as next steps are concerned I definitely want to look at how we can use it more widely. I'm also going to...it's good to say this publically since they can't refuse now. I'm going to invite Deborah to join me at the future meeting of the WRAP network. It's where WRAP facilitators get together and do a workshop on what we did cos obviously we've still got a bit of work to do as far as kind of tying together the loose ends of the evaluation and getting stuff down on paper and one of the ways that I think we can make it more widely available is by telling the...we usually get 30 or 40 facilitators coming along to a network event from all over Scotland so if Deborah's willing to share that experience that's what I'd like to invite her to do. Please don't look terrified!

DR I would love to John, I would love to. Yes, uh huh.

JM Great.

LP Great.

JM I look forward to that.

DR Yes, thank you.

DD Fantastic. I just want to say that obviously our focus is around a particular constituency of the community. People who are experienced in recovery of mental health problems and you know we've spoken about the value in using the tool but it is a strengths based model and what we've known for some time is that about how versatile and adaptable it is and that how effective it can be for so many, many other people you know to adopt and use so that's somethings again we'll be exploring kind of further down the line about where else we can take this and I think that's why it's really important we had from the outset at the point where we thought we need to explore this, you know, we need to kind of test this and John's name kind of popped up straight away but also obviously with John being part of the Scottish Recovery Network and very interestingly where the Scottish Recovery Network is at the moment it's all just very symptomistic I think.

LP I love when that happens. It's good when a good plan comes together. Deborah anything else you'd like to say?

DR No that's me thank you.

LP Brilliant thank you very much everybody for your time.

DD Thank you.

LP And for sharing so openly with us today, think it'll make for a really useful contribution to the evidence base of this type of stuff for the sector.

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